Trial of Temptation is Over!
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Wow, that takes patience. Mine are always fully broken in at the 400 mile point. I follow the Motoman method and tips I learned with my motocross race bikes. Cool down, torque down, and several oil changes ensure rings seat properly. My first oil change is at 20 miles. Most people that I ride with that follow the manual, I can smell oil from their exhaust when I ride behind them, not the case with my bikes. They are crisp and tight. I will trust the judgement of performance engine builders over product liability lawmakers every time.
Good on you for the patience, I fall more in line with Doug.
On my MT, 250ish miles to first oil change with lots of mountains and varying loads. Hitting the limiter at 400 miles and always in D1 mode. IMO, it’s the clutch and the gears that need to seat/bed.
Old-time engine builders used the three hot & cold cycles with varying loads, then max load. It was always the ring&pinion and transmission that needed a kinder break in.
I understand warranty concerns and the electronic eye that keeps memories but as Tommy boy said, I can take a dump in a box and give you a warranted/guaranteed piece of shit.
Its a great bike, hope you have many, many miles of good times.
On my MT, 250ish miles to first oil change with lots of mountains and varying loads. Hitting the limiter at 400 miles and always in D1 mode. IMO, it’s the clutch and the gears that need to seat/bed.
Old-time engine builders used the three hot & cold cycles with varying loads, then max load. It was always the ring&pinion and transmission that needed a kinder break in.
I understand warranty concerns and the electronic eye that keeps memories but as Tommy boy said, I can take a dump in a box and give you a warranted/guaranteed piece of shit.
Its a great bike, hope you have many, many miles of good times.
And so the break in shitfight starts.🍺🍿.
I'm on Yamaha's side.
I'm on Yamaha's side.
Just saying, never an oil burner or a failure here, 30+ bikes and counting. The manufacturers cover themselves on the side of safety, money, and liability. My new mx bikes were always broken in an hour or less. I make 3 oil changes by 600 miles and switch to synthetic after that, not one mechanical failure, transmission, clutch, crank, cam, piston, valve. Nothing, and I run them hard.And so the break in shitfight starts.🍺🍿.
I'm on Yamaha's side.
That's fine, but there was a vid sometime ago of testing factory v hard break in on 2 new Honda singles. They claimed that there was no significant wear difference in the rings and other wear items. But, being internet experts, they glossed over the large increase in ring gap. From memory it was around 10 to 15% greater. That indicates the service life of that engine was shortened by the hard break in.
That may not worry the first owner, but it will bite some poor bugger on the butt later on.
Hard break ins are fine if you don't give a damn about that, or you're a race team who doesn't have the time to do a proper break in. (They tend to rebuild engines far more often anyway).
This idea is why I'm reluctant to buy used bikes or high performance cars. I was lucky with my 09, I could only afford used then.
That may not worry the first owner, but it will bite some poor bugger on the butt later on.
Hard break ins are fine if you don't give a damn about that, or you're a race team who doesn't have the time to do a proper break in. (They tend to rebuild engines far more often anyway).
This idea is why I'm reluctant to buy used bikes or high performance cars. I was lucky with my 09, I could only afford used then.
I am not saying that I hard break-in the motor, I torque it up and down in each gear for the first 20 miles, let it cool completely and drop the oil. Next time I torque it higher, then 3rd time even higher. By about 250 miles, I am all set.
Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power
New Engine Break In Procedure For Cars, Motorcycles, Motocross, Snowmobiles and Boats
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Difference in ring gap could mean the hard break-in rings were more severely worn. Or it could suggest the soft break-in rings were showing a tighter gap because the rings never bedded in. They'd have to had measured both engines before and after running to really learn anything.That's fine, but there was a vid sometime ago of testing factory v hard break in on 2 new Honda singles. They claimed that there was no significant wear difference in the rings and other wear items. But, being internet experts, they glossed over the large increase in ring gap. From memory it was around 10 to 15% greater. That indicates the service life of that engine was shortened by the hard break in.
That may not worry the first owner, but it will bite some poor bugger on the butt later on.
Hard break ins are fine if you don't give a damn about that, or you're a race team who doesn't have the time to do a proper break in. (They tend to rebuild engines far more often anyway).
This idea is why I'm reluctant to buy used bikes or high performance cars. I was lucky with my 09, I could only afford used then.
What kind of engine was it?
Modern metallurgy and machining has changed the rules on us. I don't know if folks know how damn tough these coated aluminum bores are.
Old school cast iron bores? Hit em with the hard break-in. They need it. I've seen it too many times.
Modern coated bores? They're so hard wearing it doesn't matter.
I've seen nikasil bores literally still like new and the rings were so worn that they were in pieces. Too little or too much throttle during it's first few months won't phase it. The rings just don't bed in to the bores like they used to. Also, if the rings themselves wore down any measureable amount in the first few heat cycles.... they'd be completely worn away in a years time.
I'm not taking sides with either team. But with these modern engines, don't let one camp or the other worry you about if your engine is hurt because you or someone else maybe didn't break it in right. It's a CPR. You're golden 😁
Old school cast iron bores? Hit em with the hard break-in. They need it. I've seen it too many times.
Modern coated bores? They're so hard wearing it doesn't matter.
I've seen nikasil bores literally still like new and the rings were so worn that they were in pieces. Too little or too much throttle during it's first few months won't phase it. The rings just don't bed in to the bores like they used to. Also, if the rings themselves wore down any measureable amount in the first few heat cycles.... they'd be completely worn away in a years time.
I'm not taking sides with either team. But with these modern engines, don't let one camp or the other worry you about if your engine is hurt because you or someone else maybe didn't break it in right. It's a CPR. You're golden 😁
Would a simple compression test reveal any defect to the rings or do you need to disassemble and measure them?
Honda 250 single.Difference in ring gap could mean the hard break-in rings were more severely worn. Or it could suggest the soft break-in rings were showing a tighter gap because the rings never bedded in. They'd have to had measured both engines before and after running to really learn anything.
What kind of engine was it?
I'm sure it would have been obvious from the condition of the cross hatching on the bore if it had not bedded in. I'd also think that Honda are quite consistent in their engine building process. They're pretty much known for it, it's safe to assume that they do not build engines with a 15% variation in clearances.
And, the factory process has been designed to break in an engine properly. In all the new vehicles I've had, not one has given any indication that the bed in process did not work.
But this is the same old story. The idea that people who've never designed an engine in their lives know more than the engineers who design engines that spin over 12k rpm, meet all current emission standards, have a 2 - 3 year warranty and are expected to last beyond 100,000 kms with just routine maintenance.
Shiny has a good point on the nikasil bores.
And while I certainly don’t know more than the Yamaha engineer who designed the engine, I know a good deal more than them when it comes to how I earn my money and how I choose to spend it. Not to mention how I’m spending my time with my bike. When you only have 10 good years left, time is of the essence.
Its not my concern on how you break in your bike, it’s your 10k and your bike. It’s just, like, my and your opinion man. Ain’t a smidgen of engineering going on in forums.
And again, Its a great bike, hope you have many, many miles of good times
And while I certainly don’t know more than the Yamaha engineer who designed the engine, I know a good deal more than them when it comes to how I earn my money and how I choose to spend it. Not to mention how I’m spending my time with my bike. When you only have 10 good years left, time is of the essence.
Its not my concern on how you break in your bike, it’s your 10k and your bike. It’s just, like, my and your opinion man. Ain’t a smidgen of engineering going on in forums.
And again, Its a great bike, hope you have many, many miles of good times
One of the biggest things I find annoying on the internet is the "ArE yOu An EnGiNeEr?!" Karens. It's a lazy way to shut down a conversation.Honda 250 single.
I'm sure it would have been obvious from the condition of the cross hatching on the bore if it had not bedded in. I'd also think that Honda are quite consistent in their engine building process. They're pretty much known for it, it's safe to assume that they do not build engines with a 15% variation in clearances.
And, the factory process has been designed to break in an engine properly. In all the new vehicles I've had, not one has given any indication that the bed in process did not work.
But this is the same old story. The idea that people who've never designed an engine in their lives know more than the engineers who design engines that spin over 12k rpm, meet all current emission standards, have a 2 - 3 year warranty and are expected to last beyond 100,000 kms with just routine maintenance.
Do you know what mechanical engineering is? It's the science of recorded failures. We tried stuff, some of the stuff we built broke, and we kept notes. " Aw shit, that bridge fell....make a note for the next guy". Young kids pay good money to have access to those notes, and they get the title of Engineer in return. Spend a few years memorizing the hard knocks the old guys learned the hard way. Info sharing is great for society. Keeps things progressing vs constantly relearning.
You know who else has the same knowledge and understanding? Anyone interested and willing to educate themselves. Even if they didn't pay some school to brand them with a title.
Mr Honda didn't turn in his final college exam after completing it. The professor told him that he couldn't get his diploma if he didn't turn the exam in. Honda sent himself to school because he was horrible at metallurgy and his piston rings were garbage. After taking the exam, Honda recognized that he knew all the answers. "I came for knowledge, not a diploma. I have the knowledge I came to get".
If you saw the bullshit I have to fix because some engineer decided it was time to do things different, you'd maybe start having more respect for actual know-how vs dumping faith in bought titles.
Very interesting. Thank you.
So there was a 5 ten thousandths difference in ring gap initially, and no ring gap afterwards.
Plus it was a shop built engine. Appears to be coated bores from the video. Thanks.
By "responsible" break in I mean
On the way home from the dealer (20 miles) I gently and momentarily got the RPMS to almost redline in all 6 gears. When I got home I changed the oil. The filter was full of shavings.
20 to 199 miles rode as suggested in the manual.
At 200 miles I gently and momentarily got to red line in each gear and changed the oil again. Rest of the miles I rode as suggested.
I honestly don't know if it matters. It's just what makes me feel good inside and it gave me some time to get to know the bike.
On the way home from the dealer (20 miles) I gently and momentarily got the RPMS to almost redline in all 6 gears. When I got home I changed the oil. The filter was full of shavings.
20 to 199 miles rode as suggested in the manual.
At 200 miles I gently and momentarily got to red line in each gear and changed the oil again. Rest of the miles I rode as suggested.
I honestly don't know if it matters. It's just what makes me feel good inside and it gave me some time to get to know the bike.
All I really know is that it's It's a totally awesome motorcycle. It is the perfect bike for me. I love twisty roads and acceleration. It's great in the city and rips on back country roads.
Ride safeish everyone!
Ride safeish everyone!
I don't care about titles either. But I've seen the huge advances in engine design since 1965 when I first became interested in engines. We now have ordinary passenger vehicles capable of 150 - 200 hp per litre with long term reliability, something utterly impossible 60 years ago, or even 40. That's due to improved metallurgy and oil technology, and improved engine design by engineers to take advantage of that technology. In bike terms, my 1983 GPz 750 produced half the power of a modern 750.One of the biggest things I find annoying on the internet is the "ArE yOu An EnGiNeEr?!" Karens. It's a lazy way to shut down a conversation.
Do you know what mechanical engineering is? It's the science of recorded failures. We tried stuff, some of the stuff we built broke, and we kept notes. " Aw shit, that bridge fell....make a note for the next guy". Young kids pay good money to have access to those notes, and they get the title of Engineer in return. Spend a few years memorizing the hard knocks the old guys learned the hard way. Info sharing is great for society. Keeps things progressing vs constantly relearning.
You know who else has the same knowledge and understanding? Anyone interested and willing to educate themselves. Even if they didn't pay some school to brand them with a title.
Mr Honda didn't turn in his final college exam after completing it. The professor told him that he couldn't get his diploma if he didn't turn the exam in. Honda sent himself to school because he was horrible at metallurgy and his piston rings were garbage. After taking the exam, Honda recognized that he knew all the answers. "I came for knowledge, not a diploma. I have the knowledge I came to get".
If you saw the bullshit I have to fix because some engineer decided it was time to do things different, you'd maybe start having more respect for actual know-how vs dumping faith in bought titles.
That knowledge was passed on through traditional educational means. (engineering degrees)
Because there was no internet for the next forty years.
BTW, no one has all the answers. Hondas long standing problems with cam chain drives and rectifier problems showed that.
Same for me, really. Perfect application for what I wanna do. For a while I thought about going to the track with it, but they're not really designed for that. If I'm gonna do that, I'll get a 600cc supersport (you'll never catch me on a litre bike, I have no desire to go that fast) and do it properly... But for ripping around town and the canyons on the other side of the Cascades, I can't imagine a better machine.All I really know is that it's It's a totally awesome motorcycle. It is the perfect bike for me. I love twisty roads and acceleration. It's great in the city and rips on back country roads.
Ride safeish everyone!
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