[Robert Taylor]

In fairness if a scooter sized shock is going to work on any bike it will work on the MT09 chassis because of its very ''flat'' link curve ratio. But there are plenty of bikes they just dont work on. A notable example is YZFR3. There are much more credible brands available from a technical and quality standpoint.

And if the Ohlins wasnt working then it wasnt sprung and set up properly. As would be the case with any shock that regardless has good bones

We have removed a number of Razor shocks because the customers were disgusted with their performance and in this country appallingly bad backup. Having had them apart and dyno'd them their limitations are very apparent, including very poor compression adjuster response and cross talk when you adjust rebound

 

[shamrock]

I have a K tech Razor on my FZ07 but I still like this guy. We can't forget that the real racer guys have no use for any of these low budget components. I understand what he's saying but there is no way I was going to spend twice the price for a Penske to put on a play bike that will never see a mountain road.
It is obvious that Mr Taylor has a vast wealth of suspension knowledge and experience and is willing to exchange some of this with us and we must understand that he will always opt for the more sophisticated stuff.

 

[LouG]

You guys might like to know that Mr Taylor is one of, if not the, premier suspension gurus in NZ. He has many years of experience with Ohlins and Nitron among others.
So feel free to argue, but know who you're arguing with.

 

[bill64]

You guys might like to know that Mr Taylor is one of, if not the, premier suspension gurus in NZ. He has many years of experience with Ohlins and Nitron among others.
So feel free to argue, but know who you're arguing with.

Does it mean that all of us that we bought and use that shock are brainless and we can not understand if it works or it is useless?

 

[Robert Taylor]

In general it is undeniable that using a small piston size introduces limitations with what you can do with the shock. Its also undeniable that if you dare to challenge what people have purchased you can get their hackles up, for that I offer no apology.

1) If the price is low for any suspension unit that to me is a red flag. If any company is discounting thats also a red flag because its almost all about sales rather than full and proper technical backup. Its the easiest way to make sales but also the least imaginative, you are instantly devaluing your product

2) My observation here is that K-Tech needed a range of shocks for everyday roadbikes and they needed them quickly to create a revenue stream. This in part because the silly buggers give so much away in road racing, which like most discretionary activity should be a user pays sport . That is the way Ohlins operates, the factory doesnt sponsor anyone and they operate like a business. Regardless they are worldwide the most successful in this discipline. What grates is K-Tech plagiarised so much of what Ohlins have designed and their company culture is undeniably toxic.

3) With such a small bore shock if you need a lot of initial control you will pay the price with too much high speed compression damping. If you have a ''flat'' link curve ratio ( as in the MT09 variations ) then sure you may get away with it. But most applications are average at best.

4) External compression adjustability response is generally very poor to the point the adjuster may as well be painted on. In fact with many of these shocks adjusting rebound tighter will deliver more compression damping because there is so much cross talk happening.

5) When you use such a small bore shock for such applications you by implication limit what is possible because you reach the limitations of whats possible with valving and external adjustments very quickly
An excellent example of same is YZFR3 rear shocks for racing application, but also road. To the casual observer they will think ''small bike, small shock''. You couldnt be more wrong. The shock is mounted a very long way forward in the swingarm and there is no linkage. Of consequence they will typically have to run thereabouts a 160 newton spring for racing where a YZFR1 for racing will run thereabouts a 100 newton spring. ALSO, the shock shaft is moved very very slowly, until there is movement there is no damping produced, if the movement is ''slow'' there isnt a lot of damping produced
So if you run a small bore 36mm shock in such a bike the shock internals have to have very aggressive valving to deliver initial control. The negative by product is too much high speed compression damping. Such shocks are an absolute disaster in bikes such as YZFR3, if you are looking for comfort on the road, forget it.
Note that when these are raced K-Tech dont use the Razor shocks because of this limitation. With Booth Amos last year he used DDS35 twin tube shock but that wasnt enough for him to win the WSS300 championship
Ohlins and YSS use 46/45mm shocks for these, with 16mm shafts. Inherently before valving is added a 45 or 46mm piston shocks ''sweep'' more oil and the 16mm shafts displace more oil, so they inherently produce more damping just from the sizing. This means that the valving can then be more supple and reactive simply because the valving is then not doing all the work! In WSS300 YSS has won the championship the last three years running and is continuing its dominance this year. This with their 45/16 shocks that are also available to the buying public.

Yes this is a racing example but the same explanation of choosing appropriate piston size and shaft size is still totally relevant for any application, allied with more supple valving

6) In respect of the gentleman that stated his FZ09 Razor shock worked better than his previous Ohlins it misses a technical point. The potential to spring and valve accordingly with the Ohlins means that its potential to exceed the best possible setting with the Razor shock is a total certainty

 

[bill64]

Is there any YA 570 owner here to give us his view, opinion?

 

[Robert Taylor]

There is a dynamic in the worldwide marketplace that is worthy of mention, selling outside your appointed territory over the internet. A company may have a fantastic website / webshop claiming they are the second coming of Christ and discounting / devaluing product. With just a few mouse clicks and your credit card your new suspension gets despatched from Holland ( for example ) and is winging its way to ( for example ) to New Zealand. But pause to think..........

1) Sure you got a good price, but what didnt you get?

2) The seller has happily clipped the ticket but neither returns his profits into your local economy or employs your countrymen. He is doing nothing for your country and is only concerned about making a profit, you as the buyer are concerned only about the lowest price and have ''drunk the cool aide'' espoused by the website. Of course, everything is ''correct'' on the modern day version of ''the chattering classes''

3) The seller might have got the spring rate right but what if ( as so often happens ) the delivered factory internal valving is too aggressive for the roading conditions you are riding it on? You are up the creek without a paddle and as the seller is half a hemisphere away he is conveniently ''insulated'' by your displeasure. He will say that the valving is as delivered by the factory ( which it will be ) and insinuates thats as good as it gets. Bear in mind that most resellers are not highly experienced suspension technicians, they usually are very much not.

4) So you then have to locally find a technician highly experiened with the product that you bought offshore and didnt furnish your local economy with income. So you will pay the going rate and all of a sudden your purchase becomes quite expensive. It might be a YA570, it might be a reconstituted shock range built from scooter size parts( K-Tech ), it might be a Wilbers or a Penske, it could be anything . This nonsense happens more than you think. A handful of years back I had a customer who purchased an R9T Ohlins shock that told me he was buying it from a supplier in Europe because he could save NZ$150 on my sell price. I warned him that the delivered springing would be too firm for him but also the internal compression valving would be too firm. He ploughed ahead anyway believing the rhetoric of the seller that everything would be a land of milk and honey. Lo and behold about 2 months into his purchase he rang me and with meek voice told me that his shock was delivering poor ride quality whereupon I politely remined him that had he purchased the shock off my company within the price that I had quoted the shock would have been sprung and valved within that price to suit his personal stats, loadings and to suit our roading conditions. We duly sorted out his issues to a happy outcome, he was then at $400 more than had he purchased off my company in the first place.
I quoted Ohlins in this instance but we see these issues with so many brands of suspension. And I re-emphasise that if there are limitations ( such as shock sizing and internal componentry ) then it limits what is possible

5) As an exclusive distributor of 4 leading products we respect our distributor agreements in respect of appointed territory to sell product into, we DO NOT sell offshore and outside of the appointed territory. This is an old school etiquette and we make no apology for that. Our website sucks, in part because we are hands on delivering tuning and servicing suspension all individualised for our customers with best settings to suit our roading conditions. Personally I have nothing but totally unbridled contempt for those who sell outside of their appointed territory. A number of years back there was an American reseller discounting Ohlins product around the world, after doing a lot of damage around the world it all came to a grinding halt when this brazen smart alec was prosecuted by the IRS for tax evasion that was likely between 1 to 1.5 million $US. Subsequently he was jailed for I think 3 to 3.5 years, many would say that wasnt enough and I make no apology in stating that I hope he had a very rough time in prison. When resellers like this despicable example of humanity are larger than life this normally raises a red flag.

Doubtless there are many internet purchasers happy with their product, but there sure as hell are MANY that are not. Certainly the internet resellers are very happy with their spreadsheets.

 

[LouG]

Does it mean that all of us that we bought and use that shock are brainless and we can not understand if it works or it is useless?

No, but it does mean that he's pulled apart more shocks than you and I have had hot dinners. So he knows what the guts look like. I have never disassembled a bike shock.