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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm running Yoshi R77 full system, block off plates and, as of couple days ago, a PCV with O2 optimizer. Stock air filter and DB killer in. The bike has just been dynoed by the local Dynojet dealer.

I invariably ride in A and I don't think I've ever seen the ECO indicator come on. Post-tune however it's now on most of the time below 5000 rpm no matter how spirited I am with the throttle. At first I actually thought it was a warning of some sort because I'd never seen it before.

It's all subjective but I don't feel the bike is as snappy as it was before a) I put on the block off plates and b) had the PCV and tune. When I ditched the stock exhaust there was a notable difference, I felt, in throttle response and acceleration. The throttle response now is very smooth but I just don't feel like it's as crisp as before the block off plates and PCV.

For what it's worth the best dyno run came up with 103 hp and 63 ft/lb, with both values about 5 above pre-tune. It was 30 C at the time and the bike was running 91 gasohol.

I don't have more than a rudimentary grasp of what's going on with A/F ratios. I did notice this comment from Nick at Stoltec in another thread:

"The ECU tries to compensate to achieve a 14.7:1 A/F ratio whenever the ECO indicator is on. This is a pretty major swing from closed/open loop operations, so if it bothers you, this is the best course of action. Recommend you disconnect the battery while disconnecting the O2 to clear the memory and learned values."

My basic question is this: is my ECO indicator coming on because the bike has been tuned to run lean at lower throttle settings below 5,000 rpm, which is maybe why I feel it's not as crisp as before (although as I say I felt that since putting on the block off plates - that killed the backfiring).

I know I should open the map that's in the PCV but I've only got a Mac so need to borrow a friend's Windows laptop. I'm thinking of doing that, downloading the Yoshi map from Dynojet, comparing the two and then maybe trying out the latter map. Or should I try disconnecting the O2 optimizer? Or should I just live with it?

Any thoughts from you guys who have a much better handle on tuning would be gratefully received.
 

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Well I can say with confidence that the block off plates didn't change anything. If you did the PCV at the same time that's likely the culprit. The block off plates aren't affecting anything in the power production department.
 

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deff leave the optimizer on, that is trying to trick the ecu into thinking its leaner then it is

I do not think the AIS works under acceleration but I could be wrong. If it is active and injecting fresh air into the exhaust pre o2 sensor then the mixture would appear leaner then it is and not make the o2 sensor want to lean it out as much. or another way of saying it is if the ais is active under light acceleration then yes installing block off plates would effect the fueling. The computer would make it leaner in the area you are talking about. The o2 sensor is only active under light throttle application. If the AIS is not active under small throttle openings then as pbnut said it is not effecting anything.

you mention the bike was dyno'd but did not say tuned , then you say since the tune, so I am guessing they tuned it on the dyno. DO you know what type of dyno they used?. Most dyno's are only good for tuning at 100% throttle and not for tuning in the area you are referring to. This is one of the reasons I like tuning while riding the bike over dyno tuning.

On my bike the ECO light comes on at light throttle but deff goes off when I give a handful of gas, I have block off plates, no optimizer, and the 02 sensor active. My bike is deff snappy
 

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I only use a Dyno that has Tune Link software, Tune link software is especially built for PCV tunning, it is 10 times faster than any hand built map & can tune the bike correctly if used correctly by the Dyno tuner, I have been using the program for many years now. I would also target a Dyno house that is using the latest Winpep8 Dyno software, with this latest software we can see in real time what the HP & Torque outputs are & play with the A/F ratio in real time when the Dyno is spinning up to get the most out of the tune, on a lot of my KTM maps I run different A/F ratio's in different TPS/RPM ranges this has allowed me to get the most Torque out of my tunes & I could not do this so easily without Winpep8 & Tune Link, doing this all by hand would take days.

The problems with Auto Tune is unless the bike is A/T under load the A/T will throw different trims at you can be anything from +-3 to 4%, the reason for this is a motors A/F ratio under load lets say up a hill can be 3 to 4% leaner than the A/F ratio going over the crest & down a hill, the A/T cannot see if you are up or down an incline it just see A/F ratio. If you understand this you will be fine, if you let the A/T just run all the time you will constantly see changing trims.

To over come this I run a on/off A/T switch so when I want to A/T a map I can switch the A/T off when the motor is not under load.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks guys for the comments.

vcycle - yes, bike was tuned. I don't know what type of dyno (do you mean inertia or brake, or the model of Dynojet). Re-reading the PCV installation guide I see it says "The O2 Optimizer controls the stock closed loop area. The O2 Optimizer is designed to achieve a target AFR of 13.6:1. To use the O2 Optimizer you must retain your stock O2 sensor. You will notice that in the maps there are not detailed values below 2750 RPM at 40-100% throttle. This is because the throttle blades will not open more than 40% below this RPM range no matter how much throttle input is given. Therefore this area can not be tuned." I can see how below 2750 rpm and light throttle the ECO light might come on, but it still seems strange it would be up to 5,000 rpm.

kevxtx - I don't have the AutoTune add-on. Unfortunately over here in sunny Bangkok there are literally only a handful of dynos. The place I went is generally considered to be 'best', or at least to have the newest dyno, and the techs have apparently been trained by guys from Dynojet Malaysia. That of course may mean bu##er all.

The problem we have here in Thailand is that you're never really confident that mechanics etc really know 100% what they're doing and there is so little choice anyway. EG the main Yamaha dealer still insisting that the ECU flash doesn't apply to bikes sold in Thailand, even though the bikes they sell are US California models!

Cheers again.
 

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I only use a Dyno that has Tune Link software, Tune link software is especially built for PCV tunning, it is 10 times faster than any hand built map & can tune the bike correctly if used correctly by the Dyno tuner, I have been using the program for many years now. I would also target a Dyno house that is using the latest Winpep8 Dyno software, with this latest software we can see in real time what the HP & Torque outputs are & play with the A/F ratio in real time when the Dyno is spinning up to get the most out of the tune, on a lot of my KTM maps I run different A/F ratio's in different TPS/RPM ranges this has allowed me to get the most Torque out of my tunes & I could not do this so easily without Winpep8 & Tune Link, doing this all by hand would take days.

The problems with Auto Tune is unless the bike is A/T under load the A/T will throw different trims at you can be anything from +-3 to 4%, the reason for this is a motors A/F ratio under load lets say up a hill can be 3 to 4% leaner than the A/F ratio going over the crest & down a hill, the A/T cannot see if you are up or down an incline it just see A/F ratio. If you understand this you will be fine, if you let the A/T just run all the time you will constantly see changing trims.

To over come this I run a on/off A/T switch so when I want to A/T a map I can switch the A/T off when the motor is not under load.
correct! I always put the switch in. The reason above is why people say autotuning doesn't work. I take several steps to ensure I get repeatable accurate results. Generally I Can get a bike dialed in a couple rides with my system.

Thanks guys for the comments.

vcycle - yes, bike was tuned. I don't know what type of dyno (do you mean inertia or brake, or the model of Dynojet). Re-reading the PCV installation guide I see it says "The O2 Optimizer controls the stock closed loop area. The O2 Optimizer is designed to achieve a target AFR of 13.6:1. To use the O2 Optimizer you must retain your stock O2 sensor. You will notice that in the maps there are not detailed values below 2750 RPM at 40-100% throttle. This is because the throttle blades will not open more than 40% below this RPM range no matter how much throttle input is given. Therefore this area can not be tuned." I can see how below 2750 rpm and light throttle the ECO light might come on, but it still seems strange it would be up to 5,000 rpm.

kevxtx - I don't have the AutoTune add-on. Unfortunately over here in sunny Bangkok there are literally only a handful of dynos. The place I went is generally considered to be 'best', or at least to have the newest dyno, and the techs have apparently been trained by guys from Dynojet Malaysia. That of course may mean bu##er all.

The problem we have here in Thailand is that you're never really confident that mechanics etc really know 100% what they're doing and there is so little choice anyway. EG the main Yamaha dealer still insisting that the ECU flash doesn't apply to bikes sold in Thailand, even though the bikes they sell are US California models!

Cheers again.
correct that's what I meant by dyno type.

Yea that is not an optimal situation. What I would do Is make sure you have the base map saved you are running. Then add 5% fuel under 20% throttle and see if it gets the snap back. If it doesn't try taking away 5% fuel and see what happens. This should give you a better idea what is going on.
 

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I'm using the Autotune with the LCD -200 data logger. Took a little while but the bike now run great. I don't use the Optimizer, no real need for it once the map is sort out (for me at least) The off throttle was a bit tricky to tune on this bike but now work great.

All I need to do now is double check over 40% throttle/4K RPM on the dyno. I got it close but to do it right I need slow engine acceleration, like in top gear. 3rd gear pull goes too fast to get a real good tune and do 5th gear pull to thr rev limiter on the street is sort of not recommended. Doing it on a dyno should keep me out of jail LOL

My O2 sensor is set up with a on/off switch so if MPG is what I need I can switch it on and hold 14.7 AFR for long ride. I also have the Advgear set up to have top gear @ 14.2ish AFR. Deceleration is a bit different in top gear...
 

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I've been using PCV, O2 Optimizer and AutoTune for a while now. Initial base maps for the exhaust were set first on a dyno. After every other ride I would check the Autotune maps and accept trims. My AutoTune is set to adjust AFR 5% outside the closed loop range (O2 optimizer) which is a bit on the safe side.. Granted it took a while, but the engine keeps improving each time I accept the trims and the AutoTune keeps adjusting. If used properly, AutoTune and O2 optimizer can be very effective.

Also, weather plays a role in AFR, so if your climate is changing with seasons then Autotune becomes more valuable. In California our climate is pretty consistent, but I've ridden my FZ-09 primarily in Canyons and race tracks that were either hot and dry or cold and wet.

Only thing I can suggest to you is work with your base map in PCV, and let AutoTune do the adjusting for you. Just remember to let the O2 optimizer control your closed loop range and accept trims as much as possible.

Btw, not sure about your setup, but I'm running Autotune and O2 optimizer concurrently.
 

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Don't have a clue about this stuff... does it really make a difference most of us can appreciate?
 

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Don't have a clue about this stuff... does it really make a difference most of us can appreciate?
When yamaha or any manufacturer sell a vehicle, they want it to be balanced in a way that any rider with varying size and skill can feel comfortable on it all while complying with environmental regulations. In that process they have to typically de-tune an engine to a level that is user friendly to the mass market, efficient and with low carbon footprint.

Therefore you end up buying an engine with greater capabilities then its actually set up for. Re-mapping the fuel will help you expose the greater potential of the engine producing greater power delivery and in most cases greater efficiency. The difference is great and once you try it you never want to go back. Its well worth the investment, but there is many ways to skin the cat, you just have to figure out which way makes sense for your needs and budget.

Just remember, horsepower is never cheap and useless without good power delivery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yea that is not an optimal situation. What I would do Is make sure you have the base map saved you are running. Then add 5% fuel under 20% throttle and see if it gets the snap back. If it doesn't try taking away 5% fuel and see what happens. This should give you a better idea what is going on.
Thanks - sounds like a good plan.

Also, weather plays a role in AFR, so if your climate is changing with seasons then Autotune becomes more valuable.
I don't have Autotune (yet …). Bangkok and the immediate surroundings is basically hot most of the year round (av 25-35 C or something like that). Pretty flat, too, so altitude variations not a factor (I also fly a bit so have some familiarity with what happens to the performance of a normally aspirated engine at hot temps / high altitudes).

Don't have a clue about this stuff... does it really make a difference most of us can appreciate?
Does it make a difference? I think so. Changing the exhaust from stock certainly made a performance difference, at least to my way of thinking, and sounds waaay better too. I just find all this quite interesting from a technical point of view, although I wish I understood it all better. Baby steps etc.
 
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