[Rapid red]

See burning oil post....I think the two are related ( cold op temp and running rich)

http://www.yamahafz09.com/forum/6-fz-09-general-discussion/557-burning-oil.html

 

[cjhorton]

I took a look and took apart my cooling system today(don't tell the warranty police). I drained the coolant and pulled the thermostat housing off. It's the black plastic thing behind the header pipes. I pulled the exhaust to make it easier. What I found was a big disappointment.

The thermostat and housing are a sealed unit, no easy way to test the thermostat. But much worse yet, the thermostat is just rattling around loose in there and not even remotely sealed to the housing. Thermostats always have a rubber or other seal around them, otherwise they can't work. This means that coolant can bypass the thermostat when it needs to be stopped by it. I ran some water into it with my hose and a lot gets by, even without a water pump trying to push it through.

This seems like a serious design or manufacturing defect to me, and I can't think of any way to fix the situation, not being able to open the housing. Not only the coolant but also the oil temperature will be too cold, this is really bad, and can cause a lot of extra wear to the engine. I ride even when it's cold out so I'm not too happy Yamaha screwed this up. I hope after they get enough people noticing this and complaining they will come up with an updated part.

Also, the only temp sensor I can see is right in the head, so it is sensing actual engine/coolant temp.

What a POS! Props to you for finding that out!

 

[deadduck357]

Y'all are getting me worried.

 

[Too Old]

I took a look and took apart my cooling system today(don't tell the warranty police). I drained the coolant and pulled the thermostat housing off. It's the black plastic thing behind the header pipes. I pulled the exhaust to make it easier. What I found was a big disappointment.

The thermostat and housing are a sealed unit, no easy way to test the thermostat. But much worse yet, the thermostat is just rattling around loose in there and not even remotely sealed to the housing. Thermostats always have a rubber or other seal around them, otherwise they can't work. This means that coolant can bypass the thermostat when it needs to be stopped by it. I ran some water into it with my hose and a lot gets by, even without a water pump trying to push it through.

This seems like a serious design or manufacturing defect to me, and I can't think of any way to fix the situation, not being able to open the housing. Not only the coolant but also the oil temperature will be too cold, this is really bad, and can cause a lot of extra wear to the engine. I ride even when it's cold out so I'm not too happy Yamaha screwed this up. I hope after they get enough people noticing this and complaining they will come up with an updated part.

Also, the only temp sensor I can see is right in the head, so it is sensing actual engine/coolant temp.

Kudos to you for diving into this. Can you see or feel the thermostat is whats rattling in the housing or is the rattle a bypass valve of some kind. So that some coolant can go around the thermostat like car motors have. Good to here the sensor is in the head. Thanks.

 

[bobby walnuts]

I like to see at least 160 degrees and most modern engines have a 180 to 190 degree thermostat. When it is 28 degrees out the coolant temp stays at or below 130 degrees, no matter how long I ride it. This is at highway speeds. As air temp warms up, so does the coolant temp.

tell your dealer about this. if you've got a bad thermostat, it should be an easy warranty fix.

 

[Coreytrevor]

Kudos to you for diving into this. Can you see or feel the thermostat is whats rattling in the housing or is the rattle a bypass valve of some kind. So that some coolant can go around the thermostat like car motors have. Good to here the sensor is in the head. Thanks.

I decided to go nuts today and hack into the thing. I figure I can order another one if my plan doesn't work or the bike needs to go in for warranty. I can get it for about $40.

I cut the canister open around the line where they bonded the upper and lower halves together with a thin hacksaw blade. I know, I'm crazy, but these are the type of things I do when I get obsessed with something I don't like.

The thermostat is just sitting loose in there, nothing to seal it, it also has a 3mm or so bleed hole, like most thermostats do. There isn't enough room to put in a o-ring or anything but with the thickness lost cutting it open, now the thermostat fits tight. The 2 halves of the housing after I cut it provided a good flange to drill holes and use screws to hold it back together. I used some really good 3-bond sealer, 1211? that will seal almost anything, over 400 degrees. I also put a little on the thermostat to seal it to the housing. I know, quit thinking nobody else would do this. If it leaks, I order a new one, if it doesn't leak right away it probably never will and then I can head to Alaska for my January trip. J/K.

I feel I have confirmed that this thermostat can't work at low temps the way it is built, it's junk. At higher temps it won't matter at all.

I almost didn't post this, knowing that about 98% of you will now think I'm an idiot. OK, let me have it!

 

[v2Bob]

Is the design wrong or the manufacturing? Hard to believe Yamaha would get something this important and basic wrong.



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[dantheman]

I almost didn't post this, knowing that about 98% of you will now think I'm an idiot. OK, let me have it![/QUOTE]

I guess ill be in the 2% then, thats good stuff to know great find. Keep us updated with head temp now after repair, sounds like possible recall item.

 

[Willowbilly]

You remind me of....me. I had the reverse problem on my pickup truck. Tried three T-stats, and it was running too hot. I took the last one and drilled a hole in it to create my own "2-stage" thermostat. This way a small amount of coolant gets through even when the thing is closed. No more overheats.

I'm sure this isn't a Chilton's or Haynes approved repair method, but it worked. I like the saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. But by the same token, if it's ef'd up, you have to get creative sometimes. Well played.

 

[deadduck357]

This not being Yamaha's first bike I think I will wait for a recall, if there's to be one.

 

[Mothy]

You are making me wonder if there's an issue, but I don't think it's out of the ordinary. All the liquid cooled bikes I've had responded to cold temps the same way. At 5 degrees C the FZ is stuck at 55 C on the highway, and my 500 Ninja is pegged just below the warm range.

 

[Coreytrevor]

I guess ill be in the 2% then, thats good stuff to know great find. Keep us updated with head temp now after repair, sounds like possible recall item.

Thanks! It might take a while for it to get cold enough here to test it. I should probably just take another trip to the desert!

 

[Coreytrevor]

Is the design wrong or the manufacturing? Hard to believe Yamaha would get something this important and basic wrong.

I'm assuming the design is wrong since there is nothing in there to seal the thermostat to the housing, or space for anything to fit. Maybe they never rode the bike in cold temps or figured most people don't ride in the cold. Or maybe they weren't worried about it because the extra wear on the engine will take a fair amount of time and miles to be noticeable.

 

[v2Bob]

I don't ride in the cold as much as some riders, and I don't know as much about thermostats and running a engine on the cold side, but I want my engine to last etc. I'd like it to be investigated further and if there is an issue have a good company develop a replacement for it. Seems like Graves would be the best people for the job, I'll post about this on that thread. Thanks Corey.



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[sven]

In Las Vegas traffic my temp reading was 214f

 

[Coreytrevor]

I've been riding it with no leakage but haven't had temps cold enough to test my mod.

 

[Stoltec Moto]

I've been riding it with no leakage but haven't had temps cold enough to test my mod.

Keep us posted, Corey. I finally have this bike back on the road, and it's been getting cool here. Noticed yesterday it would never get above 160F while moving (40F ambient). Traffic brings it up to around 200F, but it takes a while. Took it out this AM for an hour while it was around 25F and never got the coolant temp over 138F. IF that temperature is an accurate representation of the operating condition, it's concerning to say the least. Not only does it fall short of the specified temperature range, but it's also very low from a FI standpoint. My concern now points to oil temps...if the oil temp never gets hot enough to cook off the moisture and fuel blow by, that can be a recipe for disaster.

I plan to pull the thermostat housing soon when I pull some other parts off the bike. Looking forward to hearing your update.

Do you have a picture of what you hacked open? Is it posssible that flowing coolant pushes the thermostat against a flange during operation?

 

[bobby walnuts]

not disregarding the possibility of bad thermostats, but some thoughts:

- yamaha likes to use 160 degree thermostats on other bikes (r1, r6 and their derivatives). someone with the service manual will need to confirm if this is also the case with the 09.

- from the layout of the cooling system, it looks like that even with the thermostat fully closed, coolant will still flow out from the engine, through the oil cooler, and back through the water pump. this will result in some amount of cooling. if coolant temperature is low when the bike starts moving, and you're cruising on the freeway at very low ambient temps, it might be enough cooling to not allow the coolant to reach a comfortable point.

- the coolant temperature sensor is on the intake side of the engine, which isn't unusual. but what's notable is that the coolant also enters the engine from the intake side (look at the location and design of the water pump). on many other bikes, the coolant enters the engine from the exhaust side, where it absorbs combustion heat as it flows over to the intake side and past the temperature sensor. so basically the 09's temperature sensor is reading the temperature of coolant that hasn't had much chance to absorb a lot of heat.

 

[bobby walnuts]

Keep us posted, Corey. I finally have this bike back on the road, and it's been getting cool here. Noticed yesterday it would never get above 160F while moving (40F ambient).

if yamaha is using 160 degree thermostats on the 09, then this sounds about right.

Took it out this AM for an hour while it was around 25F and never got the coolant temp over 138F.

what was the coolant temperature when you first started moving, and what kind of riding did you do?

 

[Stoltec Moto]

if yamaha is using 160 degree thermostats on the 09, then this sounds about right.




what was the coolant temperature when you first started moving, and what kind of riding did you do?

I'll get back to you on the service manual specs...tied up at the moment. I vaguely recall the operating temperature being in the 190-220 range...I'm guessing here. But you are correct, if the thermostat opens at 160F, that could still deliver the operating temperature range given the right ambient temps and/or riding style.

First started moving...LO (I don't let my vehicles warm up fully before moving). It gradually ramped up to 138F. Stopped in some light traffic and it hit 160F. Took it to the freeway and it dropped to 138F during sustained 75 mph cruising. Heavier traffic yielded 190F, which dropped nearly instantly when moving.

If the thermostat is working properly, the radiator works REALLY well.